That Reptile Blog – Reptile, Amphibian and Exotic Pet Care and Information
In Part I of this article we discussed the origin and current state of the problems associated with the long term use of goldfishes as a staple food for reptiles and amphibians.
Bait and Tropical Fishes
Fathead minnows, golden shiners and related fishes are preferable to goldfishes as a reptile and amphibian food, and may be used as dietary staples where appropriate. They are generally raised in outdoor ponds or wild-caught, and have fed on a variety of invertebrates, plants and other natural food items. This renders them a highly nutritious food item.
Whenever possible, you should alternate the species of fish offered. This is especially important for water and tentacled snakes, mata mata and alligator snapping turtles, Surinam toads and other species that feed primarily upon fish. Many common pet trade tropical fishes are nutritious and easily-reared, including swordtails, platys, guppies and mollies.
Food Market Fishes
Food market fresh water fishes (i.e. Tilapia and catfish), especially those which can be obtained whole, are another useful option. I fed the Bronx Zoo’s gharials (large, piscivorous crocodilians) on trout for many years…but that cost upwards of $1,000/month – 20 years ago!
Collecting Native Fishes
Where legal, you can add vital nutrients to your pets’ diets by collecting freshwater fishes via seine net, trap or pole. I always remove the dorsal and pectoral spines of catfishes, sunfishes and other well-armed species, just to be on the safe side.
Fish and Vitamin E
The Vitamin E question has also been investigated…I’ll write more on that in the future. For now, please be aware that frozen fish of any kind, used as a dietary staple for crocodilians and turtles, has been implicated in Vitamin E and other deficiencies. Marine fishes, frozen or fresh, seem to block vitamin absorption when fed in quantity to fresh water animals.
Further Reading
I must say that, food considerations aside, I like goldfish! Please check out our blog article Carnival Fish for some interesting background on their habits, care and long history as pets.
Hello Frank,
I recently got two stinkpot turtles, a hatchling and a female. The hatchling is doing very well and feeding on mainly baby crayfish, and also red wiggler pieces. It has nibbled a bit of Hikari sinking carnivore but isn’t really willing to eat other pelleted food(tried Zoomed turtle pellets). Is this fine for the time being? Any additions I should add to its diet? It is almost the size of a 50 cent piece.
The adult female unbeknowst to me when I acquired her has some pretty bad shellrot on her plastron. I scraped out the spongy smelly material and she’s been drydocked with a heatpad and given a daily bath/chance to feed/drink/defecate. Afterward I soak/rinse her plastron with Betadine. Seems like almost all of the dead part has been removed at this point. I’m hoping she is ok in other ways(heard turtles are very prone to respiratory infections)
Any thoughts would be much appreciated!
~Joseph
Hello Joseph, Frank Indiviglio here.
Nice to hear from you, I hope all is well.
Stinkpots (musk turtles) are on my mind lately…I’ve had my female for 40 years as of this week!
They tend not to eat the pellets if given a good deal of live food; but your diet is fine, the crayfish are a very good calcium source. Perhaps add some small whole fish on occasion; they also like insects and dried prawn. Try pellets after skipping a few meals.
You’re taking all the right steps re the infection…the only complication may be if it has become systemic and spreads away from the plastron. Musk turtles might be especially prone to this as there is often a good deal of space (skin) between the scutes of the plastron. Abrasions there might allow the bacteria to spread through the body cavity. Usually the turtle will cease feeding if this happens, but I do recall a 60 pound common snapper that continued to feed for some time, despite fact that an infection under the carapace scutes had become systemic. If the turtle becomes listless or ceases feeding, it would be best to bring it to a vet for injections of Baytril or something similar.
Good luck and please keep me posted….I hope you’ll be writing about them 40 years hence!
Best regards, Frank Indiviglio.
Wow, that is very impressive! Have she ever bred/produced any offspring? I wonder at what age are they no longer capable of doing so?
Advice sounds great. I will probably get the baby musk some guppies per your suggestion. A pellet or two of Reptomin I’ve tried is so far just feeding the baby crayfish(gutloading them perhaps). He has learned to associate me with food and will come dashing over when a finger/spoon is lowered into the water. But will lose interest unless it is either a stunned crayfish or a worm.
As for the sick female, she still looks quite alert, but hasn’t fed in a few days. I will keep a close eye on her and if she isn’t feeding soon a vet visit is likely in order. I’m assuming prognosis is good if it is caught soon enough?
Also, how big is your female? I recall biggest stinkpots are generally 4.75-5 inches. This female seemed pretty big to me compared to the others being sold but actually is not even 4 inches. Wonder at what size/age they reproduce?
Thanks!
~Joseph
Hello Joseph, Frank Indiviglio here.
It’s a shame people don’t give much thought to musk and mud turtles, there are so many interesting species here, and most are far better suited to captivity that the larger basking turtles. I worked with the huge Mexican musk turtles, Staurotypus triporcatus for years…one was over 70 years old; they have massive jaws with a plate of sorts on the mouths upper surface to crush snails and clams.
We don’t know much about when stinkpots reach sexual maturity, or how long they are reproductively active, as most info is anecdotal. Mine bred in her 30’s, but I stopped pairing her after that – adults of opposite sexes are hard on one another, lots of aggression from males in breeding condition. She’s just over 5 inches (straight line)…appears larger due to bulk and high carapace. The record seems to be 5 3/8”, with a longevity record of 55 years when I last checked, but that was some time ago.
Infections in turtles, at least some types, are tricky…they seem to “incubate” for awhile, and hardy species such as stinkpots get along fine for a time. But once they go systemic the turtle will decline rapidly, and even antibiotic injections may be ineffective; best to err on the side of caution.
I fed my musk on live foods more or less exclusively for the first 8 years or so, try pellets and fish but crayfish/worms are a good basic diet.
Good luck and please keep me posted.
Best regards, Frank Indiviglio.
Hello Frank,
I’ve done a lot of reading on the natural history of these guys(having only observed introduced invasives here it must be quite a treat back East to see several different species in the wild) this was all interesting information. The age to maturity many sources gave varied widely(I’m guessing maybe extrapolating growth? I don’t recall a way of telling age in wild turtles). Varied from as young as 3 years in females from one author to as old as 9-11 for females by another author(4-7 in males).
So the female didn’t eat for the time since the last letter. I had been looking into vets and talked to a few members of the CTTC here for advice. At one point I even wondered if the female might have gotten a respiratory infection. But after some more reading I wondered if she might have been kept too dry and started allowing her longer soaks(half a day rather than a hour or two), and made sure her hide stayed humid when she was drydocked. I figured at this point most of the bacteria was dead and since musk turtles were found by one author to dehydrate a lot faster out of water than any other turtle tested I figured being kept quite dry must have been stressing her out. Anyway her general condition(activity”attitude” if their is any word for it but she seemed much more relaxed) improved and she surprised me by eating again today. Thoughts as to how to progress from this point?
Thanks!
~Joseph
Hello Joseph, Frank Indiviglio here.
Glad to hear the turtle is improving; I doubt she would start eating if the infection was getting worse… only way to be sure would be blood/fecal tests, but I think you are past the danger point. I would keep the animal warm if the weather cools. Musk turtles will remain active at quite low temps, but their immune systems function best when it is warm. Water of 75-78 F would be fine, with an opportunity to bask at higher temps – a basking area that remains partially below water will more likely be used than a fully dry one.
Yes, it is difficult to judge age/sexual maturity in wild turtles based on size – growth rates vary, even in the wild. Free-living turtles in temperate regions usually lay down 1 growth ring per year (captives not so – I’ve seen 5 year old spur thighed tortoises with 20+ rings); after age 20 or so, however, some rings are worn down, and counting becomes unreliable.
Good luck and please keep me posted.
Best regards, Frank Indiviglio.
Hello Frank,
Thanks for the info! That is indeed close to what I have been doing for her. Recent cold weather seems to have slowed the baby down quite a bit(less active in general, though has learned to follow the feeding utensil around the tub and I get it to do a few laps before feeding time).
Have you any photos of your female? I think an article on mud/musk turtles would be very interesting. I’m assuming you’ve probably had experience with the other NA muds/musks also?
All the Best
~Joseph
Hello Joseph, Frank Indiviglio here.
Thanks for the reminder…actually I’ve been wanting to do an article for a long time now, afraid I’ll not know where to stop, so need to plan a bit! But I will, and will include a photo of mine.
I’ve been very fortunate in having worked with quite a few species; in NYS, the Eastern mud is protected. It occurs only on Long and Staten Islands, and there almost exclusively in salt marshes. I’ve done some sampling for the DEC – very surprised to find it in salt water, foraging near diamondback terrapins!
In zoo collections I’ve had 3-striped and yellow bellied muds, razorback and loggerhead musks; real treats were two that range from Mexico into Central America, the giant Mexican mud turtle, Staurotypus triporcatus – they have a plate on the roof of the mouth, can crush most any snail or clam, and the amazingly large-mouthed narrow bridged musk, Claudius angustatus.
Take care and enjoy,
Best regards, Frank Indiviglio.
Just thought I would update that the female has shown marked improvement. Some of the pits(originally several mm deep) are now flush with the rest of the plastron, and the rest are much shallower than they were in the beginning. 2 pinholes on her marginal scutes also turned out to be filled with rotting material but I cleaned these out several weeks ago and already can see new growth coming into them. I have heard different things as to whether or not damaged scutes will actually grow back over the bone/whatever it is.
I am surprised these are not more popular than they are already…but the combination of laying relatively few eggs and not growing as fast as sliders, along with the low price due to wild populations building up to high numbers seems to discourage captive breeding. I’m sure the less than appealing name has something to do with it but the hatchling I have will musk when picked up and although surprisingly strong reminds me more of the ocean than anything.
All the Best
~Joseph